(no subject)

[taffimai]

Two questions from the Dyke March:

1) Why does being a lesbian have to come with a built-in political agenda? Just because I like girls I need to be an anti-Capitalist vegan? Why?
2) Why has the left so embraced the Palestinian side of the Israel/Palestine conflict? Do they not understand that Israel was created in an attempt to create a place of refuge for a group that had just barely survived attempted genocide? Do they not understand that they are siding with a group that systematically uses acts of terror to advance their cause? Can they not understand that no, Israel isn't perfect but that this isn't a black and white issue?

Comments

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

1. I'm a bi chick with no political agenda. Meat=nom nom nom. Matzo brei=nom nom nom.

2. I'm pretty divided on Israel. I like the idea of Israel. Ultimately, I do see the need for it. On the other hand, they did carve a nation out of an area that already have people living there, which is always gonna be problematic. I think kicking people out of their homes is crappy, but so is terrorism. I guess I come down on the side of "can't we all just get along?".

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

1. Ooooh, matzah brei!

2. Israel was conquered out from under British rule, though. It's not like it was a Palestinian country before we got there. Anyway, there's still an Arab quarter in Jerusalem, no one's been kicked out of their homes there.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll admit to not being as knowledgeable about the history of Israel as I should be. Mainly it just has always seemed to me from all the stuff I've heard over the years that the Palestinians did get screwed over in a bunch of ways and that for the present, both sides are basically dicks to each other.

That being said, I do see the necessity of having a Jewish state. But like you say, it's not a black and white issue. I can't pretend I don't have some mixed feelings on it, though I'd be the first to admit that I could stand to do some reading on the subject.

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

You know, what it comes down to for me is that we do need a Jewish state. Do you know how many Jews died because America and European countries turned away refugees? I would like that Jewish state to be Israel because of all that it means to the Jewish people, its history and its culture. But if there were an alternative? Yeah, that could work.

[mofic.livejournal.com]

The Palestinians have gotten screwed over, indeed, but a whole lot of the screwing has been by the Arab nations. Israel assimilated Jews from all over the world. Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia kept Palestinians in refugee camps in terrible conditions and blamed the Jews.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Don't buy "stuff". Buy some history books. Seriously, no sarcasm intended.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

Israel was conquered out from under British rule, though. It's not like it was a Palestinian country before we got there.

You know, I hate to ask, but who do you think was living there at the time?

I'm very well aware that the area was at the time a British Protectorate - my father in law was serving in the area when the Zionist extremists blew up the King David hotel and, oddly, he's never been a fan of the state of Israel since.

Given that the kingdom of Israel, ie a self governing Jewish state, had not existed since Roman times, and given that the refugees from that were decanted in on top of the indigenous population were the citizens of virtually every European nation from Portugal to the Crimea, it amazes me that anyone could ever have thought it would work.

Of course, fifty years on, the situation is not the same as it was then. The displaced population gradually dies or moves on, I suppose carrying with it the same memories that the Eastern European Jews must once have had, of a homeland they were dispossessed from. Meanwhile the incomers grow old and die, and their burials claim the soil, and the new generation grows up knowing no other home.

People don't forget - right or wrong - they carry their memories down the bloodlines.You can slap a lid on it, like Tito did in Yugoslavia, but people don't forget, and once the lid comes off, it's back to the fighting worse than it was before.

Or that's how it appears to me anyway

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

You know, it's amazing how little affection the Eastern European Jews I know have for their "homelands." Might have something to do with the hatred, the progroms, the ghettos, and let's not forget the camps. Was conquering Israel a "nice" thing? No, of course not. I never said it was. But considering the need for a place of refuge in the face of repeated attempted genocides it was a matter of survival and I absolutely support it.

My point above: There was no such thing as a self-governing Palestinian state before, so this hasn't changed because of the creation of the state of Israel.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Your knowledge of history is sorely lacking.

The WORD Palestinian didn't even exist until Arafat coined it in order to incite bloodshed. Were there people living in the place we now call Israel? Yes. Were they self-governing? No. Did they have the right to vote? No. Were they encouraged to stay and assist in building the land for the betterment of all? Yes. Did they choose to do that? No. Instead, they declared war on Israel and ALL JEWS the very minute the state left British rule.

So you know. I have a hard time with liberal guilt and manipulated history when it's used to support people whose entire agenda is to kill everyone like me. Which is pretty much why I don't give a flying fart what you or your father in law think of Israel.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

And in fact, the only time that Arabs living there have had the right to VOTE has been under Jewish rule.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Oy. I guess what I meant by my last comment is that I sympathize with it being disturbing how people of a supposedly fringe or outsider group can be just as conformist in their own way. It reminds me of that scene from Life of Brian when Brian tells the crowd, "You're all individuals! You have to think for yourselves!" and they start chanting in unison, "We are all individuals, we have to think for ourselves".

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's what's confusing me. Why can't I be a business person and a lesbian and enjoy a good burger?

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

It's why I don't feel comfortable or welcome at a lot of gatherings I would otherwise love to be a part of.

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

Well, in DC there's a gay synagogue that I enjoy. It's not much, but it's something.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

Why can't I be a business person and a lesbian and enjoy a good burger?

Now that's a view I can entirely sympathise with. People keep expecting that because I'm a pagan, I'm also a vegetarian. And no, I don't know why.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

2. THANK YOU. I have more, but. Just. THANK YOU.

ETA: Ok, here is the more. It's bedfellows; it's the notion that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. People who do not support the US Govt. frequently side with their political enemies. These same people also believe that US=Israel, and probably that Jews secretly run the US Govt. Of course, they won't say so OUT LOUD, but they will instead side with the Palestinians, despite the fact that their entire agenda is to kill all of us off. But you know, that isn't anti-semitic at all! It's black and white thinking of the most insidiously racist sort, and I prefer to deal with neo-nazis rather than knee jerk liberals like these, because at least they are fucking honest with their hatred.

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I definitely think that's some of it. I also think a lot of it is displaced guilt from how America treated its indiginous population. It's not even remotely the same situation, but it tweaks those buttons and launches people into this-is-wrong-even-though-I-don't-understand-the-situation mode.

And, yeah, this is personal for me. Have you heard of Koby Mandell? He was my little brother's best friend.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

It's personal for lots of us, and that is another reason I have no fucking patience for those to whom it is merely liberal guilt politics.

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think the first answer is a pretty good example. People love to spout off about Israel and its wrongness without knowing a *single actual fact* or any of the history. After all, they've heard "stuff" and don't we all know that word of mouth "stuff" is more than enough to make a judgment call?

It's easier to follow the trendy path than to actually think about things and figure out *why* you dislike and refuse to support something. And right now, hatred of Israel and Zionism is very, very trendy. After all, you're not hating Jews! No, really you're not!

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you're right and I get that. I just don't like it.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

There's a Zionism post coming on, C.

There really really is.

[fridge-buzz-now.livejournal.com]

1. I don't get the instant lesbian=vegan thing. I'm a vegetarian, but it has nothing to do with my sexual preference. People get so excited about labeling themselves that they start making connections where there aren't any.

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

There's an awful joke in here about eating meat versus eating manmeat, but I'm not going to make it.

[fridge-buzz-now.livejournal.com]

I felt it, too. As long as we both acknowledge the moment, nothing has to be said, hahaha.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

I think you just did. :p