(no subject)

[taffimai]

Two questions from the Dyke March:

1) Why does being a lesbian have to come with a built-in political agenda? Just because I like girls I need to be an anti-Capitalist vegan? Why?
2) Why has the left so embraced the Palestinian side of the Israel/Palestine conflict? Do they not understand that Israel was created in an attempt to create a place of refuge for a group that had just barely survived attempted genocide? Do they not understand that they are siding with a group that systematically uses acts of terror to advance their cause? Can they not understand that no, Israel isn't perfect but that this isn't a black and white issue?

Comments

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

1. Ooooh, matzah brei!

2. Israel was conquered out from under British rule, though. It's not like it was a Palestinian country before we got there. Anyway, there's still an Arab quarter in Jerusalem, no one's been kicked out of their homes there.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll admit to not being as knowledgeable about the history of Israel as I should be. Mainly it just has always seemed to me from all the stuff I've heard over the years that the Palestinians did get screwed over in a bunch of ways and that for the present, both sides are basically dicks to each other.

That being said, I do see the necessity of having a Jewish state. But like you say, it's not a black and white issue. I can't pretend I don't have some mixed feelings on it, though I'd be the first to admit that I could stand to do some reading on the subject.

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

You know, what it comes down to for me is that we do need a Jewish state. Do you know how many Jews died because America and European countries turned away refugees? I would like that Jewish state to be Israel because of all that it means to the Jewish people, its history and its culture. But if there were an alternative? Yeah, that could work.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

I can see that.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

So why don't we get a homeland for the Roma? A country for the gays? They got treated pretty badly as well, and they're still getting treated badly in some places. Don't know where we'd send the gays and lesbians, but the Roma come from North India.

The British tried that solution twice - once to create modern Israel and once to create modern India. In neither case did it "work", ie produce a peaceful and harmonious solution. However in both cases the entities so created are realities that are not going to go away, so any solution has to work with what we've got.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Gays are a race now?

LMFAO!

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

No. It couldn't.

It had to be Israel. They didn't "give" Israel to us. They GAVE IT BACK.

I'm so tired of people who insist that liberals can't be racist. I'm so tired of anti-semitism hidden behind so called politics. And apparently, I'm also tired of letting it slide.

*** you

[mofic.livejournal.com]

The Palestinians have gotten screwed over, indeed, but a whole lot of the screwing has been by the Arab nations. Israel assimilated Jews from all over the world. Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia kept Palestinians in refugee camps in terrible conditions and blamed the Jews.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

And, in fact, the Palestinian issue was started by Transjordan kicking them out and into what was then still British Mandate Palestine.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Okay, that's interesting. I thought the Palestinians were considered Arabs.

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

They are. Doesn't mean that they are treated well by other Arabs.

[mofic.livejournal.com]

They are Arabs. That's kind of the point. The Jewish state took in Jews from all countries and helped them make a life in Israel. The Arab nations have kept the Palestinian Arabs in substandard conditions and never made them part of their countries.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Don't buy "stuff". Buy some history books. Seriously, no sarcasm intended.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Fair enough.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Do you have any books you'd recommend on the subject, for the next time I find myself in a library?

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

This is what I bought my ex when she expressed an interest in learning more.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Sure.

Give me a bit and I'll get a list for you.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

Israel was conquered out from under British rule, though. It's not like it was a Palestinian country before we got there.

You know, I hate to ask, but who do you think was living there at the time?

I'm very well aware that the area was at the time a British Protectorate - my father in law was serving in the area when the Zionist extremists blew up the King David hotel and, oddly, he's never been a fan of the state of Israel since.

Given that the kingdom of Israel, ie a self governing Jewish state, had not existed since Roman times, and given that the refugees from that were decanted in on top of the indigenous population were the citizens of virtually every European nation from Portugal to the Crimea, it amazes me that anyone could ever have thought it would work.

Of course, fifty years on, the situation is not the same as it was then. The displaced population gradually dies or moves on, I suppose carrying with it the same memories that the Eastern European Jews must once have had, of a homeland they were dispossessed from. Meanwhile the incomers grow old and die, and their burials claim the soil, and the new generation grows up knowing no other home.

People don't forget - right or wrong - they carry their memories down the bloodlines.You can slap a lid on it, like Tito did in Yugoslavia, but people don't forget, and once the lid comes off, it's back to the fighting worse than it was before.

Or that's how it appears to me anyway

[taffimai.livejournal.com]

You know, it's amazing how little affection the Eastern European Jews I know have for their "homelands." Might have something to do with the hatred, the progroms, the ghettos, and let's not forget the camps. Was conquering Israel a "nice" thing? No, of course not. I never said it was. But considering the need for a place of refuge in the face of repeated attempted genocides it was a matter of survival and I absolutely support it.

My point above: There was no such thing as a self-governing Palestinian state before, so this hasn't changed because of the creation of the state of Israel.

[(Anonymous)]

There was no such thing as a self-governing Palestinian state before

There was no such thing as a self governing United States of America before the War of Independence. Did this make it right when the Superpowers of the day diced the country up between them?

You know, it's amazing how little affection the Eastern European Jews I know have for their "homelands."

I worded that badly. I meant that the Eastern European Jews must once - maybe 50 generations back or more - have come from the middle east. They didn't arise by prostelytisation, they're not converts, so if you go back far enough their ancestors must once have known Judea.

I don't believe Eastern European Jews anywhere (even Manchester) have much of a hankering for their old places of residence. We have a TV programme where well known people research their ancestry, and they've done a couple of people whose family fled from that area. In both cases, it was virtually never talked about in the family. Too many bad memories.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

That was me...system didn't log me on.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Your knowledge of history is sorely lacking.

The WORD Palestinian didn't even exist until Arafat coined it in order to incite bloodshed. Were there people living in the place we now call Israel? Yes. Were they self-governing? No. Did they have the right to vote? No. Were they encouraged to stay and assist in building the land for the betterment of all? Yes. Did they choose to do that? No. Instead, they declared war on Israel and ALL JEWS the very minute the state left British rule.

So you know. I have a hard time with liberal guilt and manipulated history when it's used to support people whose entire agenda is to kill everyone like me. Which is pretty much why I don't give a flying fart what you or your father in law think of Israel.

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

Not to mention the part where they were each offered half of the country and the Jews said yes and the Arabs said no.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Of course they said no. They WANT US ALL DEAD. But that isn't anti-semitic!

I hate people today.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

As I believe it was Douglas Adams who once postulated "The last thing you need is a sense of perspective."

I'm not in favour of killing anyone, but really, the area now occupied by the modern state of Israel has a long history between the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 and the start of the British Protectorate, and the fact that it was under an imposed external governance at the time really does not make it all go away. After all, I believe the citizens of what is now the United States were in that position once, but were considerably opposed to the idea that their Lords and Masters (and King George III) had the right to dictate their fate.

Having said all that, the modern state of Israel isn't going to go away any time soon, and calls for its removal from the Earth really are not any kind of appropriate response.