taffimai

1. I'm a bi chick with no political agenda. Meat=nom nom nom. Matzo brei=nom nom nom.

2. I'm pretty divided on Israel. I like the idea of Israel. Ultimately, I do see the need for it. On the other hand, they did carve a nation out of an area that already have people living there, which is always gonna be problematic. I think kicking people out of their homes is crappy, but so is terrorism. I guess I come down on the side of "can't we all just get along?".

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Oy. I guess what I meant by my last comment is that I sympathize with it being disturbing how people of a supposedly fringe or outsider group can be just as conformist in their own way. It reminds me of that scene from Life of Brian when Brian tells the crowd, "You're all individuals! You have to think for yourselves!" and they start chanting in unison, "We are all individuals, we have to think for ourselves".

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2. THANK YOU. I have more, but. Just. THANK YOU.

ETA: Ok, here is the more. It's bedfellows; it's the notion that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. People who do not support the US Govt. frequently side with their political enemies. These same people also believe that US=Israel, and probably that Jews secretly run the US Govt. Of course, they won't say so OUT LOUD, but they will instead side with the Palestinians, despite the fact that their entire agenda is to kill all of us off. But you know, that isn't anti-semitic at all! It's black and white thinking of the most insidiously racist sort, and I prefer to deal with neo-nazis rather than knee jerk liberals like these, because at least they are fucking honest with their hatred.

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1. Ooooh, matzah brei!

2. Israel was conquered out from under British rule, though. It's not like it was a Palestinian country before we got there. Anyway, there's still an Arab quarter in Jerusalem, no one's been kicked out of their homes there.

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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I definitely think that's some of it. I also think a lot of it is displaced guilt from how America treated its indiginous population. It's not even remotely the same situation, but it tweaks those buttons and launches people into this-is-wrong-even-though-I-don't-understand-the-situation mode.

And, yeah, this is personal for me. Have you heard of Koby Mandell? He was my little brother's best friend.

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It's personal for lots of us, and that is another reason I have no fucking patience for those to whom it is merely liberal guilt politics.

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Okay, I'll admit to not being as knowledgeable about the history of Israel as I should be. Mainly it just has always seemed to me from all the stuff I've heard over the years that the Palestinians did get screwed over in a bunch of ways and that for the present, both sides are basically dicks to each other.

That being said, I do see the necessity of having a Jewish state. But like you say, it's not a black and white issue. I can't pretend I don't have some mixed feelings on it, though I'd be the first to admit that I could stand to do some reading on the subject.

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Yeah, that's what's confusing me. Why can't I be a business person and a lesbian and enjoy a good burger?

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And in fact, the only time that Arabs living there have had the right to VOTE has been under Jewish rule.

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It's why I don't feel comfortable or welcome at a lot of gatherings I would otherwise love to be a part of.

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Exactly. Yes. That.

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Well, in DC there's a gay synagogue that I enjoy. It's not much, but it's something.

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That's cool.

But here in No. Cal., there are too many political rallies/gatherings etc. that I would not go near because inevitably there is some pro-Palestinian agenda being forwarded. And you know, I don't care what you think about Israel personally, but when you start saying out loud that the people who want me dead are cool, yea, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

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You know, what it comes down to for me is that we do need a Jewish state. Do you know how many Jews died because America and European countries turned away refugees? I would like that Jewish state to be Israel because of all that it means to the Jewish people, its history and its culture. But if there were an alternative? Yeah, that could work.

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I can see that.

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Be interesting to see if political action would work. You know, organize a group of people who support Israel to attend the rally and then walk out when the Anti-Israel sentiment comes out.

Complete with "Liberal. Jew." t-shirts.

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Honestly? I never even thought of that. This stuff just makes me wayyyy too upset in person. In a large enough group of Liberal.Jews t-shirts, I might do it. :)

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*nods* Might need to organize something for the next Pride. Mine will have to read: "Gay. Jew."

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chopchica.livejournal.com

Actually, I think the first answer is a pretty good example. People love to spout off about Israel and its wrongness without knowing a *single actual fact* or any of the history. After all, they've heard "stuff" and don't we all know that word of mouth "stuff" is more than enough to make a judgment call?

It's easier to follow the trendy path than to actually think about things and figure out *why* you dislike and refuse to support something. And right now, hatred of Israel and Zionism is very, very trendy. After all, you're not hating Jews! No, really you're not!

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mofic.livejournal.com

The Palestinians have gotten screwed over, indeed, but a whole lot of the screwing has been by the Arab nations. Israel assimilated Jews from all over the world. Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia kept Palestinians in refugee camps in terrible conditions and blamed the Jews.

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gnomi.livejournal.com

And, in fact, the Palestinian issue was started by Transjordan kicking them out and into what was then still British Mandate Palestine.

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hellenebright.livejournal.com

Israel was conquered out from under British rule, though. It's not like it was a Palestinian country before we got there.

You know, I hate to ask, but who do you think was living there at the time?

I'm very well aware that the area was at the time a British Protectorate - my father in law was serving in the area when the Zionist extremists blew up the King David hotel and, oddly, he's never been a fan of the state of Israel since.

Given that the kingdom of Israel, ie a self governing Jewish state, had not existed since Roman times, and given that the refugees from that were decanted in on top of the indigenous population were the citizens of virtually every European nation from Portugal to the Crimea, it amazes me that anyone could ever have thought it would work.

Of course, fifty years on, the situation is not the same as it was then. The displaced population gradually dies or moves on, I suppose carrying with it the same memories that the Eastern European Jews must once have had, of a homeland they were dispossessed from. Meanwhile the incomers grow old and die, and their burials claim the soil, and the new generation grows up knowing no other home.

People don't forget - right or wrong - they carry their memories down the bloodlines.You can slap a lid on it, like Tito did in Yugoslavia, but people don't forget, and once the lid comes off, it's back to the fighting worse than it was before.

Or that's how it appears to me anyway

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You know, it's amazing how little affection the Eastern European Jews I know have for their "homelands." Might have something to do with the hatred, the progroms, the ghettos, and let's not forget the camps. Was conquering Israel a "nice" thing? No, of course not. I never said it was. But considering the need for a place of refuge in the face of repeated attempted genocides it was a matter of survival and I absolutely support it.

My point above: There was no such thing as a self-governing Palestinian state before, so this hasn't changed because of the creation of the state of Israel.

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